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| -.Sativa.- *La Sarcastica* | DW posted on: 3/16/2007 12:02:49 AM This thread is an open apology to You and lia. I never meant to drag You into this, and for that, I m truly sorry. Ive always known You to be honest and with integrity, and as you have denied the story going around, i believe you. Please forgive me. |
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x_Dream_Weaver_x
'Gor's most proficient scribe and Master' |
DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 8:20:08 AM quote: Thank you for the apology Sativa. I was completely taken aback when Drakani posted her statement suggesting that Lisa and I had indulged in acts that had caused upset and anger in my marriage. The crude and vile way in which her statement was delivered simply showed me what a nasty piece of work she can be. I’m sure many people read her collection of disgusting words and made their own judgments as to the woman behind the screen based on this latest outburst and her original disloyal ‘outing’ of Beast’s sexuality. Both, it seems, were motivated by a simple need to score points over an adversary. Her vitriolic spewings were designed to hurt and discredit Lisa. And if there was some collateral damage to Dream Weaver and his lia, then so what? Such is the mindset of a truly unpleasant person. Our public actions during times of anger mark us and shape us. Most of us learn to curb our tantrums when we are children but some, it seems, never learn even a modicum of control. From a Gorean perspective I have learned to take my anger within and deal with it silently, giving time and thought to the situation before responding. I would suggest that everyone involved in this latest burst of unpleasantness strives to handle their anger in a better way. So – what of Drakani’s claim? She proudly and loudly boasted (in between the barrage of obscenities that no self-respecting woman would want other people to witness) that she had proof of her words. Now, proof is an often-abused term. Drakani’s use of the word would suggest that her statements were incontrovertible; that they absolutely happened without a shadow of doubt. But, no. What Drakani possessed was, at best, hear-say. Another person (an ex-slave of mine with motives all her own) had made the statement and so VOILA! -- there’s Drakani’s proof!! Just because someone says something, doesn’t make it true. Most critical thinkers (intelligent people who are not easily swayed by idiocy) will take hear-say for what it is – unreliable at best, unquantifiable always, and accurate rarely. Critical thinkers will look at the source of the claim and the probable motives behind the claim, and then decide for themselves what reasonable proof is and what can be dismissed as simply gossip. In this on-line world we all know that when things are slow, a nice juicy piece of gossip brings a little spice and entertainment to an otherwise boring evening. So, with me as the source, written not in anger but in utter disappointment, I will make this claim. You can decide which makes better proof: Lisa and I have never done anything that would cause concern or tension to her marriage or my own. We have never performed sexual acts on one-another and our relationship as long-tem close friends is as strong today as it ever was. Lisa and mylia are in constant contact and enjoy a level of friendship that many envy and some would seek to destroy and there is no on-line statement that could possibly weaken this relationship. Many of you know what a sexual person I am. Gor used to be a place where men did not have to hide or repress their sexual desires; this is one of the core philosophies of the Gorean message. That said I am not a schoolboy. I do not need to spend my every waking moment pursuing my next sexual conquest. Anyone out there who has had a sexual encounter with Dream Weaver will probably admit that invariably they have come seeking me rather than the other way round and I have certainly enjoyed my fair share of intimate moments. However, those close to me know my values and beliefs and there is no claim, no detail, and no encounter that could possibly damage my real-time relationships. I will certainly make no apology for what and who I am. Drakani delivered her diatribe on my wife’s birthday. This may or may not have been an attempt to ruin the one day of the year when lia gets to do pretty much what she wants. Maybe our petty-minded, foul-mouthed friend chose that day on purpose, maybe not. I choose to believe that she delighted in her timing, believing that she had found the ultimate opportunity for discrediting and insulting Lisa, whilst making a swipe at me. I have learned that she was apparently upset at my stance on a few issues of the time and so a little jab at the Weaver was the perfect way to attack Lisa. That extra detail – that insanely cruel piece of timing – is the indicator of just how loathsome Drakani’s filth really was. Lisa and a few others have been combating Drakani, Sativa, and Tryp for months now. I have not witnessed anything from Lisa’s side that even comes close to the real-time insults and lies. Even the unpleasant use of Beasts’s sexuality is a topic originally brought forward by Drakani herself in that staggering, infamous post of a few years back. Drakani and her petulance have been filed away as unworthy of my friendship now. Nothing the woman could do or say will change my opinion of her. I hope the woman learns to control herself as her life progresses because accountability is so important to us all. I know Tryp is angry at Lisa. Perhaps she knew that the recent crass statements impacted me and my family too, perhaps she did not. Lisa is no more a ‘cock sucker’ or a ‘wino’ than any other woman who is married and old enough to enjoy a glass of wine in the evenings. During my visits to Lisa’s beautiful home I have enjoyed some excellent wines with her and her husband. When they have visited me, I have returned the favour. I understand that Tryp is involved in a slanging match with Lisa, but I fail to understand why she would involve people who mean her no harm and have been nothing but pleasant to her. I hope to speak to Tryp in VP in the next few days so I can better understand her motives. Sativa and I have spoken on this issue and she is aware of my discontent. Fortunately, Sativa knows me well enough to have decided that if I refute Drakani’s claims, then they are most certainly untrue. She is satisfied that if it comes to believing me or Drakani then she is happy to believe me. I am grateful for her support (although she knows I am unhappy with her recent behaviour on the boards!!) So – here’s what I would like to happen: 1. I would like to see apologies from those who truly believe that their use of inaccurate real time information was inappropriate. An apology is the first step on the road towards self-improvement. 2. I would like to see the whole disagreement just fade away – with both sides just agreeing to disagree and if necessary simply avoid each other on the boards and in VP. 3. I would like to find a pot of gold on this St. Patrick’s day. 4. I would like not to have a Guinness-induced hang-over tomorrow morning. 5. I’d like Goreans to understand that I am posting this lengthy message on boards that I do not usually post to so that my unequivocal denial of Drakani’s slanderous remarks can be seen by the greatest possible audience. 6. I would like to inform anyone who is interested, that my marriage is stronger than ever, that my girl is sexier and more pleasing than ever, and that friendship with Lisa is as real and enduring as ever. I wish you well and thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts. A soft path to you all. |
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Torrie
This message was updated on 3/18/2007 2:12:55 AM by Torrie |
DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 11:59:41 AM Very well said DW..Now let's hope people listen and pay heed to your suggestions. edited for spelling, must have been more tired than I thought. Soft Paths, |
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Tryp
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DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 12:13:58 PM *hands Torrie a tissue and walks off mumbling about folks following blindly...in a very kind way so as to not upset anyone* I am currently digesting this post by DW, and will, later in the day, be addressing it, point by point. You are, of course, welcome to further discuss it with me in VP, although, since it has been made a very public issue I won't be addressing it in IM's or PR since I'm now pretty sure the "public" really wants to know the outcome. You will also note, I'm not the party who chose to make it public. I think right about now, if anyone was unaware of that particular rumor, you have made them more than well aware of it by your own post. I wish you well. |
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-.Sativa.-
*La Sarcastica* |
DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 1:46:49 PM *Very well said DW..Now let's hope people listen and pay head* torrie wants head? |
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Harley.
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DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 3:49:13 PM Well Sativa, i hear you want Cawk lol |
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-.Sativa.-
*La Sarcastica* |
DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 3:59:37 PM yes Harley, but not torries |
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Tryp
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DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 4:15:27 PM I shall address only that which pertains to me. I am not angry with leeesaa. I think leeesaa is a complete ass. The woman is fixated on and obsessed with Beast and 3 Moons and cannot let that dead horse decompose in peace. I went to her board, one I do not usually go to, because of a remark someone made to me about the vast number of posts leeeesaaa had to her bitter, incessantly whining post about 3 Moons and Beast as owner/moderate whatever, a post not one soul replied to in all that 700+ views in one day. I laughed. It was then next implied by your girl leeeesaaa that I was Sativa's lackey. HELLO! You have just invited me into your world. The obsessed lass was then invited to provide evidence of that. She could not. She can not. She is a straight up liar. Nope, I'm not mad at her. I'd have to care to be mad. She has simply made herself the object of my focus and my fukery. Such is the nature of the beast. You want to drag me into your drama? Consider me "drug" in. As of her last couple of posts, one wherein she claims an enemy boosts her views, and another wherein she claims "my slave" is boosting her views (which it is we will just never know), and her stuttering and mumbling became apparent to me, I left that board and have not returned. Nor will I. I went to 3 Moons. Leeeesaaa has since banned me from her board anyway..so I'll just keep the fukery to where I'm welcome, a board no one has to read,just like all the rest of em. As to my fukery, nowhere in those posts will you see me say anything nasty to the nutter. Nope. Instead, I had some fun with her..at her expense..yep. And? It's a bit difficult for me to fathom you sitting there expecting the rest of us to just turn the other cheek when your most favorite person in the world can't loosen her death grip on 3 Moons and what goes on there. My posts are proof in point. Not only did she read them, she read into them. She then took what she read into them and ran squalling to you who has jumped to her defense. Apparently you do not see yourself as being manipulated the way many of us on the other side of that fence do. I shall clarify for you, and type really slow for leeeesa. The Wino Shelter was something I picked out of my head. There is just no boundaries to a guilty mind. I dont know, nor care if she drinks herself into a coma. If her conscience drove her to read something else into it, it's not my problem. This applies also to the cawksucker post. My response was to Sativa wasnt it. And it was, indeed a forgiving post as well as an attempt on my part to make light of something potentially very bad. I didn't see leeesaa's name in there anywhere; however, I would presume she has her reasons for making it personal. Isn't perception a grand thing? I dont have a whole lot of heart or sympathy or empathy for those who have none and have no problem showing their lack of it. You live by the sword, you die by the sword. You come to this board to defend a friend. Your friends are no more or less than mine. I watched mine damaged, and damaged badly. I did not see you rush to any board to ask that the garbage be stopped. You say that there is a difference. That your injury is the result of rumor. I say to you that Beast's and his loved one's injury are the result of prejudice. Which is the less of 2 evils? By all means enlighten me. I will say this to you, DW, as regards the alleged rumor. I dont know if its true or not, and I dont care. You won't find a soul Ive ever even discussed it with and that's because I just dont care. I do think, however, if it is nothing more than a vicious rumor, you would not allow yourself to be manipulated into making public disclaimers about it. But, again, thats your business. I have been approached by one other regarding this junk, which in my mind is nothing more than online trash and intermittent bs. I treat it as such. I'm not quite sure what it is I'm supposed to do to make that "rumor" go away. However, I shall ask at tonight's prayer meeting. In the meantime, leeesaaa can put her big girl panties back on and fight her own battles, the ones she's so adept at starting. I will not discuss leeeesaaa with you. I don't see you as being a part of it and, frankly, never did. To be further honest with you, DW, it's not hard, nor does it take a genius, to see the motivation behind your post. That rumor is old news..very old and is dust by the wayside. I think a crybaby cant handle herself, cant face the fact that not everyone in the world agrees with her, and she has no control beyond her own little world and it's by god devastating to her. 1. Apologies are good things when they are, in fact, owed and are genuine. 2. The disagreement, indeed, faded away until leeeesaa decided to dig it up yet again. OCD ring a bell? 3. I have already found the pot o gold and spent it. 4. Drink Bud light. 5. That probably would have been more effective posted months ago when it happened. 6. I am happy for you. I wish you well. |
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x_Dream_Weaver_x
'Gor's most proficient scribe and Master' This message was updated on 3/17/2007 6:23:05 PM by x_Dream_Weaver_x |
DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 6:19:08 PM ...see below. |
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x_Dream_Weaver_x
'Gor's most proficient scribe and Master' |
DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 6:21:23 PM Tryp, your post typifies the specific issue in question and the larger topic at hand. You open claiming no anger and then employ the time-honored technique of messing with the presentation of your target’s name. It’s ‘Lisa’ not ‘leeesaa’ (and don’t worry I’ve mentioned to her and others too that I think their use of ‘tryp’, ‘drakani’, ‘sativa’ etc. is equally pointless – it simply goes towards credibility and cogency). On the same subject Lisa is not ‘my girl’. That, as any reasonable reader will deduce, is a cheap attempt at further insulting her, and casting aspersions on me. A cheap-shot, if you like. In the same way as you, wisely, said you’d only comment on my post as it pertains to you, I will be doing much the same. It is painfully obvious that you and Lisa have irreconcilable differences and it will serve no useful purpose for me to try to get into the details of your mutual silliness. That said, you mention that “nowhere in those posts will you see me say anything nasty to the nutter” and that you were just having some fun with her. Let me see: 1. Wino 2. Cocksucker (spelling it differently does not diminish its potency or its implication) 3. And now, nutter. …a strange idea of fun I’d say, Tryp, especially when, by your own admittance, the Wino comment was simply dreamed up in your own head. Would you like us all to start playing that game? Would you like me to arbitrarily make something up about you and post it in accusatory style on a public forum? Would the Gor you are so resolutely trying to preserve benefit from such actions? The fact that it is completely untrue does not make it any less hurtful. You may answer that you simply wouldn’t give a damn, but the point is some people do, and the knowledge of that fact would prevent most people from making up such baseless rumours. You say that it’s not your problem if someone takes your made-up comments to heart, but that’s just the point – it’s not your problem because you don’t care. You mention your ‘fukery’ almost as some sort of disclaimer – a word to the world that what you are saying is just for a laugh, perhaps. I suggest to you that motive is less important than result, and if you hurt someone or damage someone’s reputation, then it is not at all a ‘laugh’ for them. A little more care and empathy would make for a better world, be it an on-line world or in real. On-line Gor was once about accountability and reputation (you and I have had that conversation recently) and any false comment that damages reputations is unnecessary, unhelpful, and unwelcome. When VP had a Gorean community that cared, such actions would bring accountability into question and then, people suddenly cared about how others viewed them. Reputation was paramount and that fact helped to moderate everyone’s behaviour – whether they were a mean master, haughty FW, or irreverent PG. Let me explain the difference between reasonable and unreasonable comments: quote: In her posts, Lisa neither stutters nor mumbles. In real life Lisa does not stutter and in my experience she rarely mumbles. This statement is false and written purely as an insult. A far more persuasive technique for discrediting someone is to be objective and accurate, otherwise your words are simply viewed as lacking in credibility. Another example: quote:. You do not know that Lisa came running to me – you have assumed it to be so. False assumptions are one of the many errors in logical reasoning that people often make. You make a second error – a flawed conclusion - when you state I jumped to Lisa’s defense. I posted in my own defense because, by implication, Drakani’s claims were damaging to me. I care about my reputation. It took many years to build and I will defend it if I feel the need. You, Tryp, along with countless others have perceived me from afar based on my reputation – make light of it if you will but when VPGor mattered, reputation mattered. quote: Again, you have assumed that I have been manipulated because it suits your point of view to do so. We don’t know each other at all well but those who know me better know that I make my own mind up about everything. I made my public disclaimer because I chose to do so and because after the unsavory issue died down the first time and ALMOST went away, it was unfortunately dredged up once more for public scrutiny and amusement. Once can only placidly stand by for so long before deciding that enough is enough. The rumor didn’t go away, I was being damaged by it, I spoke out against it – simple. quote: I am sure that Lisa will decide for herself is she will continue fighting with you. If she does, I imagine she’ll fight the issues that apply to her directly. If my name is dragged into any more of the discord, whether it’s ‘made up, or ‘just for fun’, then I will decide for myself if I will address the situation. What I’d REALLY like to see is ALL of you finally getting over all this name-calling, insulting rubbish, but despite your assumption that Lisa is ‘my girl’ she is not; I thought I’d made that perfectly clear in my earlier post. I have no more influence over Lisa than I do you, Tryp. All I can do is appeal to both or you and your sense of reason – I’ll not hold my breath, though. quote: You can do nothing to make the rumour go away. I have noted that you chose to put the word rumour in inverted commas as a way of suggesting the word bears special relevance in the statement. It is my hope that those who have read recent posts will have read my words and decided for themselves if Drakani’s claims hold any weight or not. What you can do, though, is learn something from this situation. You have admitted to me, and mentioned on the boards, that you often regret your impetuous tendency to post in a moment of anger. You have stated in this thread that you consider much of what you write as light-hearted – that it’s just you being you in your ‘fukery’. It seems to me that when you post unpleasant words against an adversary then it’s all just a bit of fun and you don’t much care about the impact, and yet you are all-too aware of the hurt, pain and discomfort someone else’s words have when they are directed at your friends. The sword has two edges. I had hoped that your use of the cocksucker comment was not designed to hurt me. I believed it was possible you were unaware that when Drakani mentioned Lisa’s best friend, she meant lia, and that lia’s husband is me. You were not in Gor when we were regular visitors to VP and so it was entirely possible you were one of the few who wouldn’t know our very close association (notwithstanding the fact that Drakani eventually clarified the association for the benefit of those who hadn’t made the connection for themselves). I’ll re-iterate the part of my post that pertained to you, Tryp: quote: You have gone into great detail to explain and re-emphasize your fight with Lisa, but you haven’t addressed the point that really concerned me: quote: What I really want to understand is whether you truly believe it is OK to bring other people into your fight; people who have no particular axe to grind with you and people who have never sniped at your personal life. Were you aware that the whole cocksucker thing was a direct insult to me and my marriage as well as a baseless accusation of Lisa, or did you think it was another light-weight term best suited for your fukery department? My comments to you were carefully worded in case you were unaware of the association. I believe I gave you the opportunity of stating you had no idea that the insult to Lisa was also an insult to me. quote: I could not agree more. Depending on your response to the questions directly above, only you can determine if you believe bringing lia and me into your squabble warrants an apology or not. Unwittingly or otherwise, your decision to pick up on Drakani’s filthy remarks has upset my wife, annoyed me, and angered a close friend. Is that sufficient for an apology to someone who is not part of your fight? You decide. Certainly, only genuine apologies are sought, and only genuine apologies are accepted. So only apologize if you are inclined to do so, but only if you really are sorry for the indirect insult in which you have been complicit. I never expected you to apologize to Lisa. You are both too far down the road for either of you to be the bigger person on that issue. The same is true no doubt for others involved in this whole debacle. Frankly, I don’t care about that. You have each made your own beds and you’ll all lay in them as comfortably as your consciences will allow. I am merely interested in clearing my name with regard to the implications of your words, and in seeing some form of contrition from those involved. |
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Tryp
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DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 6:34:47 PM wow DW, why so defensive hun? This long diatribe in defense of your pet is gonna take me some time to mull over. In the meantime, feel free to start whatever you wish. I assure you I can handle it. Unlike your favorite little girl, I can take what I dish out and I need no man, woman or child to defend me in it. However, have a go won't you. I must needs digest your latest defense of a defenseless person. I wish you well. |
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Hasan
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DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 10:14:07 PM I am posting simply to make it publicly known that I empathize with the situation, having known several of my own in my 5 year career in Gor. As always, I fail to see how anyone's personal life is anyone's business but there own. I believe DreamWeaver to be a good and honest man and I stand by any man who holds fast to the truth, therefore I stand with DreamWeaver. |
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-.Sativa.-
*La Sarcastica* |
DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 10:30:49 PM this post wasnt really meant to be a tally of who stands with whom. nor was it meant to be an open invitation for all of gor to give their two cents worth. already some people are adding their twist and drama to the story as they gossip it around, so that it isnt even close to the original. my apology was not picking one over the other. i believe Weaver when he tells me it isnt true. i also believe that Drak believed it to be true. she is accused of posting it on lias bday. it had nothing to do with that. she posted it, with no names, to counteract an absurdity that lisa was spewing. lisa is not the victim here, as much as she would love to be. nor was any of it directed at DW or lia. thats the simple truth |
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Bliss
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DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 10:41:31 PM that is enough just please ..stop. |
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Tryp
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DW
replied on: 3/17/2007 10:58:06 PM I think I'll take this a step at a time, since, yet again, anything I say is stepped around and ignored. We'll do it one at a time. We will address your "rumor" issue first and get that out of the way. First. Your rumor, and it is your's DW, not mine. I didnt start it, I didnt pass it, in fact, I can go back right now to where that rumor was first posted for any eyes to see and can tell you no names were even mentioned in that post. Regardless of that, my question is this, the first step at arriving at answers behind your current motivation to single ME out as one of the prime causes of your angst you intermittently deny having; Where was this angst on January 3, 2007 when that rumor was first posted anywhere without any names mentioned? Shall we count the months and days between that posting and your current "decision" to "set right" a rumor that you know isnt true? You state out of one side of your mouth that your marriage is intact, you have no problems, everyone is happy, and out of the other you state it is causing you problems. Which is it? A friend of yours tells me that you are questioning whether you married the right person or not as a result of this rumor, and that your impeccable reputation is being damaged. You deny it. Which is it? Yea, I have text. Lastly, as pertains the illustrious "rumor", what exactly do you, and members of your camp, expect ME to do about a rumor I had nothing to do with to begin with? You'll need to clarify how you think I can fix that for you. I know how I would have fixed it from day 1. I would have gone straight to the source of all the trouble to begin with and said enough. Close and dear friends do not put one in jeopardy. They would, instead, go to extremes to prevent that dear friend from ever suffering through it. |
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x_Dream_Weaver_x
'Gor's most proficient scribe and Master' |
DW
replied on: 3/19/2007 7:56:32 AM I had hoped for an apology or at least a cessation with regards to all the hear-say, trumped up claims and double-talk. I had hoped Tryp was going to say that she had no clue who the fringe parties were in this unpleasantness and that she meant me no particular harm. It is patently obvious from her last few posts that, for whatever reason, no apology or end to this issue will be forthcoming. Clearly the woman has no qualms about attempting to hurt me and my family. Tryp has the foul-mouth of a sailor, the temper of a rattle-snake, and the morals of a schoolyard drug dealer. In this very thread she has admitted to making things up in her head in order to discredit someone. Making things up and presenting them as fact is a good definition of lying. She further states that she doesn’t much care what the consequences are of her lies. That, too, is patently obvious. Perhaps Tryp has aspirations of becoming the next Drakani. This dubious honor is certainly worthy of her now. Her reprehensible, unfathomable responses are out there for all to read, along with her insistence on perpetuating false claims and rumours. Yes, she is indeed worthy of sitting at her friend’s side. Tryp may well have succeeded in putting a dent in my reputation with her limitless propensity for drama and gossip, but she has doubtlessly put a gaping hole in her own. Not that she’d care about that, apparently. So, Tryp now wallows in the same mire of filth as Drakani. Fortunately for them both it is said that the tarsk does not notice its own stench. Like Drakani, Tryp is best ignored by reasonable people and I intend to ignore her forthwith. It will be no great loss for me and I’m sure she’d say the same. |
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