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| shalynn Quote | Reply | | How to recognise an indian by their surname? posted on: 6/19/2003 3:47:48 AM hej ppl, Since i'm not an indian, I'm quite curious about this. How to recognise a guy/ gal by their surname . I mean , how can we know whether they are punjabi, sindhi, gujurati etc..? For example:- Aishwarya Rai, i read from her interview that she's from Shetty community. What is that??? Is it the culture or race ? Then what is her race Gujurati, Punjabi or what??? If you guys know sumthing about this , pls let me know !! Thanx.. |
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rahel
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/19/2003 7:58:08 AM not sure what the rules are... but you get to know over time. Many are caste names. I think Shetty is a caste name from the south - some kind of brahmin I think. Some caste based last names from Kerala include Namboodiripad (brahmin) and Nayar/Nair. |
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*meredith*
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/19/2003 8:59:32 PM People just know, I guess, the same way in the States most of us know without being told that Gordon, Douglas, Stewart, and anything starting with Mac- is a Scottish surname, and all the O'___s are Irish, and the Smiths are English, and the Schmidts are German, and so on. (Not like this actually says anything about the ethnicity of the people with the names, though. Well, take heart, then: things are as complicated here as they are in India!) I've noticed that a lot of the really loooong names are generally southern Indian, particularly when the person only gives two initials instead of a first name (and generally, in this case, what you would think is the last name is actually the first name. I've had this explained to me as something to do with the village of origin, the father's name, and so on, but I don't remember well enough to recount it to you). Anything ending with -ani is usually a Sindhi name; Ramakrishnan and Radhakrishnan and, I assume, most names ending with -krishnan are South Indian. And of course the name Iyer is an upper-caste Tamil name, which is why it was chosen to be the female character's name in Mr. and Mrs. Iyer. It's safe to assume that any name you regularly hear as a character's surname in films (Sharma, Varma, Malhotra, etc.) is probably one of those extremely widespread, general names, spanning a variety of communities, since Bollywood usually takes care not to demarcate its characters too specifically along the lines of community, caste, etc.. One thing I've found interesting is that Choudhary can be both a Muslim and a Hindu name. I wonder how many names fall into that category? Not many, I suspect... |
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*meredith*
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/19/2003 9:01:35 PM One other cool thing I recently learned: a lot of Marathis (people originating from Maharashtra, the state in which Mumbai falls) have surnames which combine the name of their village with the suffix -kar. Hence Urmila Matondkar's family is originally from the village of Matond in Maharashtra. Neat, huh? |
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rahel
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/19/2003 9:54:39 PM well I think that Sharma is a caste name (north indian) and Choudary seems to be Bengali (I'm sure Meena will jump in here) and it appears to have a similar connotation to "Khan" - "Sir" kind of thing and is not a caste name. In Kerala it is common to have 2 initials then the first name. The first initial is the "house" name (the one you would be interested in if arranging marriages) the next one is the father's name and the last is the man's first name. In our community (syrian christian) it is normal for girls to use their first name followed by their father's first name. But once you meet another malayali they would ask for the name of your "house". The house name often connotes place or profession. E.g. "Malayil" (the last name of the director of Bharatham) means "in the mountains". I believe that in Nayar families, they take the mother's name since they are matrilineal. It's usually the "house" name that's really long. When they immigrate to Canada, some Malayalis will drop the house name and just use the father's name. So for example, you see lots of "Thomas Joseph"'s in Toronto. |
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MeenaKumari
Quote | Reply | This message was updated on 6/22/2003 11:14:12 PM by MeenaKumari |
How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/20/2003 2:29:47 AM quote: Actually, I was trying to wait until I could ask my dad this question because he explains this stuff pretty well. If I mention such and such last name, he can tell me instantly, "Oh, she's Punjabi" or "He's from UP," etc. Since I haven't had a chance to ask him yet, I'll write what I know thus far. Basically, from a person's last name, you can tell their religion, including which caste if they are Hindu and which part of India/Pakistan/Bangladesh they are from, sometimes even down to the village that they are from. Knowing where they are from can also tell you what language(s) they speak. As far as the last Bengali last names go, the most common ones are Mukherjee/Mukherji, Banerjee/Banerji, Chatterjee/Chatterji, etc.. In Bengali, these names would be Mukhopadhay, Bondhopadhay, and Chottopadhay, with many varations of these spellings. These names were Anglicized by British, obviously. These -jee/-ji names would be the equivalent of Jones, Smith, etc. because they are so common. Rahel mentions caste names, and the last names that end in -jee/-ji do indicate that they are Bengali Brahmins, which means that they are of the highest caste and can be priests, etc.. The caste system doesn't matter in the big cities and over here; I know Brahmins who've married Vaishaks, etc., which means that some have gone down a level or two, and nobody cares a fig. I'm not sure what happens in the rural villages, though. Choudhary can be a Bengali last name, but is not always a Bengali last name. For example, the last I heard, Mahima Choudhary wasn't sure if she was a Bengali or not; she needed to ask her mom to find out. Among the Bengalis, I've seen it spelled Chowdhary, as well. Mallick is another name that can be a Bengali name or a Pakistani Muslim name--I have both Bengali and Pakistani friends with that last name. Other Bengali last names include Kerr, Nandi, Das Gupta, Sen Gupta, Sen, Sarkar, Roy, Rai, Ray, Mitra, Ganguly, Dutta, Biswas, Bhattarcharya, Tagore/Thakkur, Ghoshal, Ghosh, Dey (I think), Basu, Burman, Shome... For the Bollywood/Tollygunga Bengali connections, Guru and Geeta Dutta (nee Roy) were Bengali, as are/were Aparna Sen (nee Das Gupta); Soumitra Chatterjee; Debashree Roy; Satyajit Ray; Shaymal Mitra; Debabrata Biswas; Rabindranath Tagore; Sharmila Tagore; Shreya Ghoshal; Bipasha Basu; Manna Dey (I think); Rituparna Sen Gupta; Rituparno Ghosh; Hrishikesh Mukherjee; Bimal Roy; Sachin Dev Burman and Rahul Dev (RD) Burman; Hemant Mukherjee; Kishore Kumar (Kishore Ganguly); and Tilotama Shome (Alice--the maid-servant who marries the wedding planner--in Monsoon Wedding). These are just the last names--I can also tell from people's first names if they are Bengali. I'll ask my dad and see what else he can tell me about Indian last names in general. Edited to add: Yes, Manna Dey is Bengali. He's going to headline a Bengali conference later on this summer in Long Beach, CA. Had no idea he was still alive! |
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Kishi
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/21/2003 12:20:17 AM Based upon Indo-Caribbeans, I realized: - Obviously, with Muslims, the common surnames are Khan, Ali, Mohammed, Haniff, and Rahman. - Sharma, Rao, Persaud, and Singh (omg, Singh!) are common upper-caste Hindu surnames. - Ramsammy, Ramnarine, Rambarras, Ramlogan, Roopnarine, and Ramdas are middle class Hindu names. (In the West Indies, Ram____ surnames are TOO common with us!) |
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MeenaKumari
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/21/2003 2:10:57 AM quote: That's interesting. When I hear the name Singh, I think Sikh. I just asked my dad if Singh is a Sikh last name and he said no, not necessarily. It can be a Rajasthani last name, and from other parts of India; there are many kinds of Singhs, but a lot of sadars (sp?) are Singhs. (Sadars are turban wearing Sikhs.) I also asked if Kaur is a Sikh last name and he said that it's a title that means princess, and that some Sikhs do have that last name. I will get more info. about Indian surnames from my dad at a later date. quote: Are these last names or first names? I've never heard any of these names before, except Ramdas, and I've heard that as a first name, like RamGopal. Maybe I don't know these names because they come from a part of India that I haven't travelled to yet. |
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::Sonia::
Quote | Reply | This message was updated on 6/22/2003 6:49:35 AM by ::Sonia:: |
How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/22/2003 6:45:09 AM ok its difficult to tell when u get to places where there are lots of christians. like kerela, which has the most christians. now my dadand mom had christian last names. if u are christian, then in lots of cases, u will have an english last name. Sikhs...most of them are from Punjab. You may be able to tell by their first name...not necessarily. Cases like mine u might be able to tell im christian since sonia is not christian but my last name is christian. anjali is a hindu name, um naina or nayana is a hindu name. khan is usually a muslim name, sometimes ppl are hindu. i have never heard any of those names eiher. people dont use names like that...sometimes they shorten them. |
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~Screen Queen~
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/22/2003 1:41:12 PM Aishwarya Rai belongs to the "Bunt" community from South Karnataka. She's South Indian and Hindu, but her sub-caste or whatever you call it, is "Bunt". A lot of Bunts are Shettys, i.e. Sunil and Shilpa both belong to the same community as Aish. It's like you can have a national race (Indian), a religious one (Hindu) and a smaller regional sub-division one depending on which part of the country you hail from (i.e. Gujarat, Bengal, Punjab, etc). Any clearer?? ~SQ~ |
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Kishi
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/22/2003 4:05:12 PM Meena, these are common surnames. Most of us in the former British countries come from Uttar Pradesh, Bihar, Kolkatta, Gujurat, and Tamil Nadu. I look up these names in the Jamaican Phone Directory, and they were the most common. Other common names I've found are: Sookram, Rakission, Ramdeen, Ramnath, Rampersaud, Ramsarran, Mohan, Maharaj, Mohansingh, Bhagwandeen, Chandran |
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rahel
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/22/2003 7:48:55 PM Yes Kishi, I have met many people from the West Indies and Guyana with names like the ones you mention. And while they are easily recognizable as being Indian in origin, usually when I see some of those I immediately think "West Indies". I suspect that that those particular variations must have had to do with the particular history of how the people ended up in those former British Colonies and how they (or others) decided on what the last name would be. It reminds me of the discussion we had earlier about the last name "Khan" in India. And did you forget Naipaul? What do you think of him by the way (I know he is from Trinidad rather than from Jamaica). |
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BollyWHAT
Quote | Reply | This message was updated on 6/22/2003 11:06:10 PM by BollyWHAT |
How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/22/2003 11:05:15 PM I found some good links on this subject. First, a page about Indian surnames in general, with special attention paid to South Indian names. Second, a site all about Bengali names -- first names, surnames, caste correlations, etc.. Third, a pretty detailed look at Gujarati Patels in the diaspora. Also, if you check out the different marriage ceremony descriptions on shaadionline.com, you'll find they give (really cool descriptions of wedding traditions for each group, and also) common surnames for each religious group. Actually, I think this is kind of interesting, so I went through most of them. (Judging from the results, Bollywood seems dominated by Khatri and Punjabi Hindus.) Here's what shaadionline.com says about surnames and corollary communities: North Indian Protestant Christian surnames: Paul, Benjamin, David, Thomas. Kashmiri Hindu Brahmin names: Kaul, Raina, Matoo, Tikoo, Dhar, Razdan, Haksar, Pundit, Kar, Bhatt Kashmiri Shi'a Muslim: Husain or Hussain, Khan, Mirza, Shirazi Madhya Pradesh Rajput: Singh, Rathore, Chandels, Himmatsinghe, Rajpura Punjabi Hindu: Arora, Malhotra, Chawla, Wadhwa, Singh, Kapoor, Khanna, Dhawan (i.e., most of Bollywood, it looks like) Punjabi Khalsa Sikh: Sandhu, Gill, Bedi, Siddhu, Sodhi, Ahluwalia, Garewal, Kairon, Rarewala, Chimni, Sukhurchakia Punjabi Sunni Muslim: Khans from Farukhabad district Hyderabadi Sindhi: Hathiramani, Sadharangani, Kripalani, Daryanani, Lalwani, Samtani, Chugani, Bhojwani, Vaswani, Buxani, Hiranandani, Uttamchandani, Mansukhani, Budhrani, Chatlani, Balani, Gulrajani, Advani, Melwani, Motwani, Khemlani, Dadlani, Chandiramani, Keswani, Wadhwani, Jagtiani, Rupani (see, my -ani theory holds water!) Kayast/Kayastha (Hindu): Goyal, Srivastava, Saxena, Mathur, Bhatnagar, Pandey Uttar Pradesi Khatri (Hindu): Tandon, Mehrotra, Arora (more Bollywood folks) Uttar Pradesi Sunni Muslim: Khan, Ali Khan, Syed, Mohammad, Sheikh. From down south... Andhra Vaishnava: Gantivaru, Malladi, Magunti, Atmakuri, Rao, Pantulu, Raju, Cheruvaru, Dodla, Kolluru, Palayam, Moorthy, Sastri, Choudry, Reddy, Naidu Bunt (Aishwarya's community): Bhandary, Rai, Shetty, Adappa, Shenava Karnataka Vokkaliga: Gowda Kerala Hindu Nair: Menon, Nair, Nambiar, Pillai, Unnithan, Panniker, Kurup Kerala Syrian Christian: Chandy, George, Eappen, Cherian, Verghese, Thomas, Kurien, Abraham, Mathan, Jacob, Zacariah, Oomen. Kodava or Coorg: Ponappa, Chinappa, Kuttiah, Aiyanna, Cariappa, Muthana, Thimmayya, Nanjappa, Mandana, Subbiah, Medappa, Monappa, Thimmaiah, Somanna, Kuttapa, Karumbiah, Bopanna, Poovaiah, Chengappa, Machia, Kalappa, Ganapathy, Belliappa, Appiah Saraswat Hindu Brahmin: Pai, Shenoy , Kamath, Nayak, Prabhu, Baliga, Mallya, Kudva, Mundkur, Karnad, Benegal, Kini, Acharya Tamil Chettiar: All surnames are Chettiar. This community takes the following middle names: Mutthaiah, Murgappan, Ramaswamy, Meyappan Tamil Iyengar Brahmin: Iyengar, Ayangar, Srinivasan, Gopalakrishnan, Jagannathan, Ramakrishnan Tamil Iyer Brahmin: Iyer, Dikshitar, Sroutigal, Sastri, Sarma, Ghanpathigal, Rao Tamil Mudaliar: Mudaliar with a suffix of the first initial of the place of origin eg:Arcot, suffix will be A. Mudaliar. Telangana Andhra Reddy: Reddy, Reddi Just to give an idea of what a cool website this is, here's a sample description, explaining the marriage rituals for the above mentioned community. All the terms are linked to explanations: The Reddys or Reddis, also known as 'Kapus' belong to a Telugu speaking community, split into several subsections. Those of them who have settled in different southern states like Karnataka and Tamil Nadu for several generations have adapted their rituals and ceremonies to suit the local customs, so slight variations will be apparent in the sequence of events in a marriage. The marriage rituals begin with a promise made by both families to each other that a wedding will be solemnized. After consultations with an astrologer, an auspicious day and time are fixed for the marriage ceremony and both the concerned parties draw up written contracts. These contracts are then placed in yellow cloth bundles along with betel leaf, turmeric, nuts and fruits and blessed by an officiating 'pujari'. List of ceremonies: 1. Patrika: A marriage contract is drawn up by both the families 2. Nischaithartham/Pradhanum: The engagement 3. Vara Puja: A puja is performed in honour of the groom 4. Paindlipilla/ Haldipaspu: Ritual bath and beautification of the bride 5. Vivaham (Muhurtham): Commencement of the marriage ceremonies 6. Kankana Shastra: Invoking the blessings of all the deities 7. Kanyadaan: Giving away the bride 8. Saptapadi: Seven steps around the sacred fire 9. Grahapravesam: The couple enters the marital home 10. Reception: Post wedding celebrations 11. Kalyanautsavam: A puja in the Venkateshwara Temple in Tirupathi Patrika: A marriage contract is drawn up by both the families This ceremony can be performed even one day before the wedding. Both families make a promise that a marriage will be held between their families. After consultations with an astrologer, an auspicious day and time is fixed for the marriage ceremony and both the concerned parties draw up written contracts. These contracts are then placed in yellow cloth bundles along with betel leaf, turmeric, nuts and fruits, blessed by an officiating 'pujari' and exchanged by the fathers of the bride and the groom. Back to top Nisachaithartum or Pradhanum: The engagement The bridegroom arrives at the bride's home accompanied by fifty to hundred family members and 'shehnai' (traditional wind instrument popular at most Indian weddings) players. He brings platters of fruits and gifts for the bride's family. His mother applies 'kumkum' (vermilion) on the bride's forehead and gifts her saris and jewellery, into which she changes and a 'puja' is performed. In many Reddi families the groom does not accompany his family members at this time. Back to top Vara Puja: A puja is performed in honour of the groom During this 'puja' the groom is given lavish gifts by the bride's parents, which may include clothes, money, a gold chain, a gold ring and a wristwatch. Back to top Paindlipilla or Haldipaspu: Ritual bath and beautification of the bride This ceremony literally involves the 'dressing up of the bride' and takes place on the morning of the wedding day. Five, nine or eleven 'sumangalis' (married ladies) perform a small ceremony to drive away evil (dhristi). Each of the 'sumangalis' holds a coin in her palm, circles it around the bride's face and throws the coin into a vessel. They then perform the traditional 'aarti' for the bride. Oil is applied on the bride by the 'sumangalis' after which she is taken for the ritual bath or 'mangal snahne'. After the bath the bride changes into a new sari and adorns herself with jewellery given to her by her family. Her mother applies a touch of 'chandan' (sandalwood paste) under the bride's chin and on her arms. As a gesture of respect the bride hands her mother a 'paldaan' (betel leaf, nut and fruits) and touches her feet to take her blessings. This same ritual is performed by all the 'sumangalis', and the bride is blessed by all of them in a similar fashion. Back to top Vivaham (Muhurtam): Commencement of the marriage ceremonies The marriage ceremonies are traditionally held in the bride's ancestral home with two 'pujaris' officiating. A large 'pandol' or canopy is erected outside the bride's home and decorated with, mango leaves, banana palms and flowers. Traditionally this 'pandol' was made from the barks of palmyra trees. The oldest member of the bride's family applies 'kumkum' on the groom's forehead, garlands him and escorts him to the marriage venue in a decorated car. The bride's relatives receive the groom at the entrance to the bride's home welcoming him with the 'aarti' and lead him to the wedding 'mantap' (platform erected for the wedding rites). As soon as he steps into the 'pandol' the bride's brother washes his feet. The bride's parents are seated in the marriage 'mantap' beforehand awaiting the groom's arrival. The groom performs the 'sita kalyani' (puja invoking the blessings of Lord Rama and his consort Sita). Back to top Kankana Shastra: Invoking the blessings of all the deities This is a very important ceremony in the Reddi community. On a silver platter are placed two handfuls of rice. A coconut dipped in turmeric is placed on top of the rice on which are placed two pieces of turmeric sticks, which have been tied to a 'kankan' or double thread. Prayers are offered to all the Hindu deities and the 'pujari' implores them to come and bless the 'kankana' with their presence and remain there till all the marriage ceremonies are completed, traditionally five days. The 'pujari' ties one sacred 'kankan' on the groom's wrist. The bride is led into the 'mantap' and the groom ties the second 'kankan' on her wrist. Back to top Kanyadaan: This is a very emotional ceremony for the bride and her parents. Two 'pujaris' recite Vedic chants and a coconut is placed on the bride's palms. Her father holds her palms and gently places them on the groom's palms, literally 'giving her away'. The bride's mother pours water from a silver 'chembu' (container with a spout) on the father's palms who in turn directs the flow of the water onto the coconut being held by the bride and groom. This ritual is called 'kanyadaan', whereby the bride's parents relinquish parental authority over their daughter. The groom ties the sacred 'taali' (two flat pieces of inscribed gold pendants strung on a cord dipped in turmeric and composed of 108 very fine threads closely twisted together) on the bride's neck accepting the gift of 'kanyadaan'. He ties the 'taali' using three knots. Then the couple exchange garlands after which they sit across each other divided by a platter of 'thalambratu' (rice dipped in turmeric). They take fistfuls of this rice and shower it over each other till the platter is empty. Back to top Saptapadi: Seven steps around the sacred fire The 'pujari' lights the 'homa' or sacred fire and the couple takes seven steps around it saying their marriage vows. The groom's 'angavastram' (shawl) is tied to the bride's sari 'pallav' throughout this ritual. Each step is a promise made to each other for an enriching and purposeful life together. As this is a Vedic rite, not all Reddi families perform it. Back to top Grahapravesham: The couple enters the marital home On their arrival in the marital home, the bride and groom are given a glass of milk from which both must drink. The groom's sisters playfully extract promises of gifts from their new sister-in-law, before allowing her to enter the room! Back to top Reception: Post wedding celebrations The reception is not a traditional concept but has become a common feature in many homes and can be as simple or as elaborate as desired. It is often held at the 'Kalyana Mantap' (wedding hall) where the wedding might have been held or even in a five star hotel or club. Cocktails and music accompany dinner. Back to top Kalyanautsavam: A puja in the Venkateshwara Temple in Tirupathi This is an important ritual in many Reddi families. The newly weds visit the Tirupathi Temple and perform what is known as the 'kalyanautsavam' - literally translated it means the marriage between Lord Venkateshwara and his consort Padmavathi. For those of them who are unable to travel to Tirupathi, this puja is performed in a Venkateshwara temple in their own city. |
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MeenaKumari
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/22/2003 11:17:22 PM Hey, thanks for sharing, everybody!  It's a nice learning experience. Meredith, is the Bengali link www.purespeed.com? That's what I'm getting when I click on your link, and right now, it's a broken server, so I don't know if it'll take me to the right place yet. |
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agapeasha
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/23/2003 9:44:21 AM speaking of indians in the caribbean, my mother can tell the difference between an indian indian last name and a guyanese indian lastname really easily. so theres gotta be some kind of alteration... |
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rahel
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How to recognise an indian by their surname?
replied on: 6/23/2003 8:03:25 PM Great sites Meredith! Note that the syrian christian surnames from the shaadi site refer to the "first names from several generations back" talked about in the first site - which is excellent! |
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