BollyWHAT.India and greater South Asia - ChatArea.com

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James. Quote \| Reply \|	Anyone & Culture replied on: 4/27/2003 6:14:55 PM I think this all comes back to what 'culture' is (re: discussion between Agapeasha and Daniel). If culture is a set of principles, as opposed to a club you're born to, then there's no reason most people would have to give up their old culture if they want to become an American. Afterall, democratic principles do not conflict with most people's cultures. A Hindu can be just as Hindu in India as in America- if they so desire. Because Hinduism has as its basic principles a morality that is in synch with democracy. They may eat different food, have a different skin colour, speak a different language at home, and wear different clothes- but they stand up for truth, justice, and the right of the people to self-governance. This goes for most world religions, and most cultures (which are supposed to be based on principles that govern our life).
BollyGirl Quote \| Reply \| This message was updated on 4/28/2003 4:08:24 AM by BollyGirl	Explanation replied on: 4/27/2003 7:39:14 PM quote: Yes. I am criticizing Americans that stick to their own culture, and don't even consider learning one thing about other cultures, but are quick to judge it because this is supposedly "the best country in the world" and freedom of speech is the excuse that always comes up. Nothing negative can be said about America, but they can pick on me because I look like bin Laden. And then on experiences, I've seen a lot of East Indians from Trinidad and Jamaica (not so much Guyana) that laugh at Indian music and culture. Wot's funny is that East Indians in Jamaica have nothing to laugh at, because most of them are uncultured and know nothing. But they like to hang around Blacks and Hispanics more than they would with my friends and I. Indians from all countries in my school is a very small minority, so we all hang out, because there isn't even 40 of us! They'd much rather listen to hip hop or reggae (not even soca or chutney) than Indian music. Then the ones from South Asia hang out with whites, and from experience as well, make fun of Indian culture, and say degrading things. They choose Linkin Park over Devdas anyday! And it bothers me, because your nothing without your culture, or if your'e ignorant of where you've come from Hmm. So you're saying it is better that Americans learn about other cultures and spend time with other people from different cultures, but Indians must "stick" to their own culture first and foremost? This does not make sense to me. I am not trying to be mean, but maybe I am not reading your post correctly, but let's use myself for an example: I am an American. I have been raised in a multi-cultural environment because my parents wanted it that way. I am going outside of my culture to learn about India and to speak it's language. I don't even live in India, but nevertheless, this knowledge I seek about India is something I decided to gain. I don't expect an Indian in Bihar to understand or relate to my culture. If he wants to know how Americans live and what music they listen to, and so forth, it is his right to find out, but not his obligation. People should be exposed to different cultures and ways of life. I agree with that; but if they decide: Well I am not interested in furthering my knowledge about say India, should we force them to? I am stepping outside of my culture, and I encourage others around me to do the same, but I will most certainly respect if they want to be wrapped up in their own culture. I think America gets a bad rap, I think we may be isolated but not totally ignorant to the world. America has many facets to itself, a Chinese person could move here and find his culture and people in Chinatown, or an Indian could move here and find his culture, food,movies and clothing on Devon Avenue called Little India in Chicago. So I think it is unfair to keep downing "uncultured" America. I also think American history is what alot of people use for their arguments against America(our foreign policy too!). I was talking to an Australian friend of mine and he says people made a big stink over the treatment of Aborigines in Australia, but America was allowed to slaughter Native Americans and Blacks. I told him it tears my heart apart to think of those things, but there are dark spots of pain in every country, not just America. I think we are making good progress, and we deserve credit for that alone. Things are not perfect, but tell me a place where everything is? *Edited to flow better
meredith Quote \| Reply \|	Explanation replied on: 4/27/2003 8:02:55 PM Yeah, Kishi, I don't see how you've answered my question. It seems like you've got a double standard going for non-desis and desis -- you want non-desi Americans to pay attention to other cultures, but you get upset when desi Americans do this. Confused... Regarding the melting pot vs. tossed salad: I think that that in one sense I do embrace the melting pot model: those who become American citizens must accept the principles on which our society operates -- separation of church and state, freedom of religion, equality of women, minorities, etc.. These concepts are not negotiable. If you come from somewhere different, and are not able to accept these concepts, then you shouldn't become a citizen. America isn't for you. And you aren't for it. Other than that, it's a free for all! Worship chia pets, dress in feather tutus, speak only in verse, so long as you accept and ADOPT AS YOUR OWN the values, laws and precepts of the Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc.. But you know, I don't think the above is usually much of an issue. Sure, people come to the US for economic opportunities, but dollars aren't usually enough of a lure to keep people here forever. The people who stay, who become naturalized citizens, often have a much more intense appreciation for this country than a lot of native-born folks do.
James. Quote \| Reply \|	Equality of Women and Men... replied on: 4/27/2003 8:16:41 PM I'm always fascinated by Celtic culture in this regard, Meredith. I remember reading something about how women also had to be prepared for the draft and capable of fighting because they had (nearly?) equal rights to men (of course, this was before the Christian influence in Britain...). I think this was the case up until around 400 a.d. I'm still surprised by it... (goes to show you that the idea of the 'weaker sex' didn't hold up in all of the ancient world)
meredith Quote \| Reply \| This message was updated on 4/27/2003 9:04:10 PM by meredith	Equality of Women and Men... replied on: 4/27/2003 9:02:29 PM On a tangent, James -- and knowing fully that you didn't mean to imply this -- I'm always a little surprised by the "draft" argument. Some sneeringly say that if women were so equal, they'd be vulnerable to the draft just like their male counterparts were. Conversely, some feminists make a ruckus declaring that women should not only be drafted, they should also fight on the front lines. Both these arguments are idiotic. They both stem from the misperception that equality means "sameness." Women and men are obviously physically different. Women just don't do as well at hand-to-hand combat as men do. They are physically weaker. But this does not mean physically inferior! It's not as if men can bear children, or nurse them. We've each got our own biological advantages. Back to the draft. Some studies have actually suggested that women might be better at operating certain equipment -- better spatial relations and all that. So why not draft us? We can be trained to run and maintain equipment, work as snipers and fighter pilots and tank drivers and munitions specialists, and so on. We won't make such good infantrymen, but we may make better strategists, etc.. If the men around me are being drafted, I've got no problem with being drafted too, just so long as I'm given a job which my biology does not innately predispose me to do poorly. (Celtic females, of course, didn't have such a wealth of options to choose from. But I bet they carried lighter swords, and trained to exploit the advantages of greater flexibility and mobility.) *edited for typos*
James. Quote \| Reply \|	Equality of Women and Men... replied on: 4/27/2003 9:46:39 PM Oh don't worry about me, Meredith- I've gone on a few tangents myself. And I understand where you're coming from- I've heard those statements about how women should be equally available for the draft, too. However, I think we'd both agree that these arguments usually come from people who don't really believe men and women are equal, and they're using this point as a means to prove it (i.e. "If women were equal, they'd be available for the draft, too!"). At least, that's the kind of people I've heard that argument coming from in the past. So that's why I think perhaps that there was some real equality in the Celtic world. Your point about confusing sameness with equality is absolutely right. But the point I was trying to raise is that clearly the contribution of women in life, including the battlefield, was real and recognized. That seemed to prove to me, whether or not women of today are available for the draft, that women in ancient Britain were not confined to the home, to be 'barefoot and pregnant', as the chauvinist's maxim goes.
Kishi Quote \| Reply \|	Another Explanation replied on: 4/27/2003 11:49:19 PM Indians always stick to their culture first. Then, they come to America, and learn about other cultures. Wot I'm saying is, Indians do stick to their culture and learn about others, but SOME desi kids in my school don't EVEN consider themselves Indian, and don't follow Indian culture. They are American first, and completely ignore Indian culture. Me, I've learned about Middle Eastern, European, and Latin American cultures, but I still always put Indian culture first. I'm not the person to totally toss it, and adopt a new lifestyle opposite of mine. When it has to come to the fact you laugh at everything Indian and you listen to Linkin Park, and stray away from things Indian (like Krishna in American Desi), it comes to a ridiculous point. There are two Muslim boys from Pakistan that are practically "black". They used to get made fun of when they came here by blacks, and they are fitting in with these same people. They've changed their first names to more "black ethnic" names, only hang around blacks, listen only to rap, pants hanging down, and laugh at South Asian cultures. That's wot I am talking about. There is no double standard.
James. Quote \| Reply \|	Another Explanation replied on: 4/27/2003 11:54:06 PM But maybe they prefer black culture to their own. Don't we have the right to choose which culture we want to practise? Just because we don't practise the culture of our ancestors doesn't mean we reject our lineage- just that we've changed what we think is important in our lives. Traditions are made to be broken...(sorta like contracts)
kaya Quote \| Reply \|	Meena: re: Americans' ignorance of turbans, etc. replied on: 4/28/2003 2:19:19 AM when i was cleaning out my old room recently, i was surprised to find a junior-high photo and see that one of my good friends was indian-american. her last name was patel. looking back, of course, i can imagine how different her home life and culture might have been from mine and my other friends' at the practically all-'white' school in tennessee. but back then i'm sure we never thought to ask her how her food, music, parents, etc., might be different from ours. and why would we? it's not like she didn't speak fluent english or wear jeans or watch our favorite TV shows; sure, her skin was darker, but to us she gave no outward clue that she was 'different.' why would we have thought that her life was any different from ours? i guess in a way this shows how ignorant americans can be about cultural differences. but maybe it also shows how kids can be better than the rest of us at accepting differences without making a fuss over them, like we do. my question is, what is the trigger that moves us from that innocent exposure to other cultures to ... this?
BollyGirl Quote \| Reply \|	Another Explanation replied on: 4/28/2003 3:46:16 AM Kishi, am I forgetting my culture, because I prefer Bollywood over Hollywood?
Rahel2 Quote \| Reply \|	Another Explanation replied on: 4/28/2003 8:06:47 AM I don't know if I'm on the same page with you Kishi, but on some level I think I know what you mean. I think you are getting at the difference between being interested in and adopting aspects of various world cultures and being ashamed of your own. While I don't think that American Desi was any kind of masterpiece it does get at this issue a bit.
Kishi Quote \| Reply \|	Another Explanation replied on: 4/28/2003 6:19:37 PM I've just had some personal experiences that I disapprove of. I never said it was "forgetting your culture" if you choose Bollywood over Hollywood. Hollywood isn't even exactly culture. Bollywood is from India, a very religious, cultural, conservative place that puts society and culture first. How could an American/European ever forget their culture by watching Bollywood films? They prefer their culture first more than anything. There is a difference between learning of different cultures while holding onto your own, than to adapt a completely new one and ignore anyone of your ethnic group. Some of these kids I'm talking about make fun of me because I'm a very cultural person. I love to learn about different cultures, but Indian and Caribbean cultures always comes first for me. I will never forget who I am.
meredith Quote \| Reply \|	Another Explanation replied on: 4/28/2003 8:19:13 PM Kishi, I hope you don't think we're ganging up on you -- the reason we're all reacting is because you raise some extremely interesting points. I get your point about showing contempt for the culture of one's birth, but since I think we all agree on that aspect, I'd like to focus below on issues that aren't as clear cut. I find the following line from your last message particularly thought-provoking. Since I don't know better, I'm assuming here that you're totally South Asian by descent, i.e., no people in your family have ancestors who are "originally" Caribbean rather than South Asian. If I'm wrong, then just ignore the below tangent: quote: I love to learn about different cultures, but Indian and Caribbean cultures always comes first for me. I will never forget who I am. So you consider Caribbean culture your culture. Caribbean culture is yours, though, because your family immigrated there at some point, yes? How then is that different than American-born desis who honor certain "American" cultures and believe those cultures are theirs as much as Indian culture is? Aren't they claiming those American cultures in the same way you claim the Caribbean culture as your own?
Kishi Quote \| Reply \|	Another Explanation replied on: 4/30/2003 6:33:12 PM See, when Indians came to the Caribbean, they didn't have a choice. And Indians have been in the Caribbean since 1838. That is one difference. Also, in the Caribbean, you have a choice: you can either follow the new Caribbean culture totally, or as well, balance it with your East Indian/African/Chinese/Islamic culture. How are East Indians supposed to adapt American culture when we were raised with 2 specific cultures: Indian and Caribbean. And that is a lot to juggle. A lot of times, desi's from India and Pakistan don't want to balance, they completely embrace American culture, and don't associate themselves with it, even denying their birth country. And once again, this is out of experience. One East Indian boy from Guyana, Rajiv, is a poser. He loves to hang out only with Blacks and Hispanics. He converted to Christianity and has just totally removed himself from the "Indian" crowd. He only balances his Caribbean and Hip Hop ways of life, leaving out spaces for anything Indian. He says that was "all in the past." Something I don't like at all, is denial. Especially when being Indian, there is SOOO much to be proud of. A lot of uncultured Indians are missing this out. And I wouldn't necessarily call American culture a culture. The East side of the world is the old world, and the West has gotten a lot from it. Usually, culture is a tradition, and it should also be included with religion/s. Americans I know aren't religious, and a lot of people I know claim to be of no religion. Jamaica is the country I was born in. So West Indian culture is mine. I am of East Indian descent, so Indian culture is mine. I am not an American, neither do I desire to be. None of my ancestors are American, so this isn't my country, and it isn't my culture, even if America had one.
James. Quote \| Reply \|	Another Explanation replied on: 4/30/2003 7:05:58 PM Traditions have a purpose and are based on principles. America has its own traditions and culture- just ask anyone who dislikes how 'Western' America is. They'll give you an earful about American culture (biased though that earful would be). But I think we all essentially agree with your point, Kishi, when you state that it's wrong to be ashamed of your heritage, whatever it might be. And if that's what your friends are doing, no one would blame you for feeling that way. But I do believe people have the right to change traditions, so if a person makes a principled stand for why they want to forego a tradition in their culture, and embrace the tradition of another culture, no one has the right to be disrespectful to that person. Which is totally different from a kid who ignores his culture because he wants to fit in.
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