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| Librarian Quote | Reply | | The books are full of contradictions posted on: 8/23/2003 10:38:54 AM Ever hear that? "Well, the books are full of contradictions.." Ok. What are they? What contradictions? Specifically. Let's examine them. i don't debate there may be some discrepancies. However let's see just how riddled with contradictions these books are. Fire away. "The books are full of contradictions." Name some. |
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Kassa
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The books are full of contradictions
replied on: 8/25/2003 4:27:53 PM ooooooh fantastic topic Kaliana -s- I happen to be of the opinion that John Norman is not a master of contradiction (as he was recently called on the AR forum boards). I happen to believe that he purposely created situations where information was presented in an "exception" or a situation that was not the same as the last time. I believe he did this for the express purpose of furthering storylines and creating drama and adversity for the characters in his book. I believe the reason we feel there exist so many contradictions within the Gorean books is that we are looking for absolutes in everything with regards to the books. We are looking for iron clad rules that say in situation A, the only appropiate response is B. Whereas because this is a world with people in it and the ever flux and sway of emotions, there will almost never be two exact similar situations. You can take two barbarian slaves and train them the same, brand them the same, house them the same and sell them to the same master and still have two widely differing slaves in everything from their thoughts to their actions and all in between. Norman often talks of honor and the dishonor a warrior should feel IF they are forced to be slave. He speaks of what would be the horror of Tarl to submit to slavery rather than being killed, but yet, Tarl is our hero and later gains his honor back. The audience (readers) are left cheering for Tarl and respecting him well before he finds renewed respect for himself. Is this a contradiction? Or merely a plot device to entertain readers?When Norman wrote these series of books, I believe that he was writing them purely for entertainment value. He was not creating a new philosophy, a new world order, nor a new way of life. He blended cultures, ideals and philosophies from a variety of different areas and created a new world - Gor. But this, like any science fiction novel, was merely a creation within his mind and not meant to be a guide book on how to create such a world. I can think of a good example where there is a quote (don't have it on me but am paraphrasing) where it says a free woman never loses herself in passion even in the arms of her campinion lest she risk a collar but there are several examples of women doing just that. Such examples as the free women who submitted to a man's couch if only for a night. They wore a collar and served as a slave, only to wake the next morning and be on their way as free women again. I personally think it's become a sort of safety net for people. -grins- If you're wrong about something or misinterpret a passage, well it's easy. It is one of John Norman's -numerous- contradictions. pfft. Now this is not to say that such contradictions do not exist within the books, I believe they likely do and must. Anyone penning 26 novels is likely to lose track of the intricate web that he's woven at -some- point. But interestingly enough..when I asked some friends to name some contradictions, most said.. oh there are tons.. but then like me, they couldn't think of many examples. Probably not the answer you were looking for -laughs- sorry! Just my thoughts -s- I wish you well, Kassa |
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Librarian
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The books are full of contradictions
replied on: 8/25/2003 9:28:38 PM ~laughing~ As usual, Kassa, i find my thoughts pretty much falling right in line with yours. And what i was looking for here was thought-provoking discussion of the concept that the books are an abyss of contradiction, so you have indeed provided a wonderful contribution. Your point of view on the idea that we tend to look for absolutes has made me think. i hadn't looked at it that way before. To me, i think the reason we hear references to the myriad of contradictions so often is twofold - The first is the tendency to disregard the fact that we are seeing scenes that take place in many cultures. A good example of this is the Free Companionship quote that (paraphrased in kali-speak) states one may have a bazillion slaves at any time but only one FC. i find that to be true of the city-state cultures which i believe it was actually referring to at the time. JN could appear to contradict himself when he gives us Bila Huruma living in the trees in the jungles with a couple hundred FCs, and yet, i do not see it as a contradiction at all. Bila Huruma is living outside the social structure that the majority of Goreans embrace. His is a tribal people. In those instances, it is imperative to examine the culture and society. Just as we would find many so-called "contradictions" in a series of books written about our planet here with all its various cultures, customs, economies and so on. When we learn of Gor from web pages that simply toss a bunch of quotes up without context, we miss out on so much and it CAN appear confusing. You know, i even spoke of the books being full of contradictions once on the boards too ~laughing at myself now~ and i will freely admit that i did it because at the time my entire knowledge of gor was gleaned from random quotes on websites - and mostly because i had heard others say it. It seemed to me to be the thing to say, i am ashamed to admit! i -thought- i sounded quite knowledgeable in spouting the accepted "catch phrase" ~laughing~ The second reason we hear it so much, in my opinion, is a combination of ignorance and stubborness to just do as we please. Wave it off with the excuse that the books are full of contradictions, gambling on the fact that so few have read the books enough to know whether it is true or not. For example, i have posted quotes on a subject and had them rebutted as if they said something else. Such as, suppose i posted a couple quotes that said all goreans wear hats on Sunday (no such quote exists, this is for illustration only). Oddly enough, the rebuttal has been "Oh the books are full of contradictions, we see men not wearing shoes on Tuesdays in several books" ~laughing~ Ok, what does the wearing of shoes have to do with a hat? And how exactly is that a contradiction? Time to get back on track here though ~L~ i really enjoyed your thoughts on the use of exceptions to create drama and advance storylines, develop characters. i think it is an excellent point AND we would all do well to remember that very very VERY rarely does JN state that anything happens either -always- or -never- So if we are told that commonly a gorean wears a hat on Sunday, is it a contradiction to see a man without one on Sunday? Or is it an exception that likely will lead to some further action in the current plot because he is acting outside of what is normal for whatever part of Gorean society he is in? To me, a solid contradiction is something like "sleen have six legs" and then later to be told "sleen have two legs and two wings" (which btw, we are NOT told...i made that up ~L~) i do actually have a contradiction that i am working on. In the beginning of the books it states clearly that the players are not a caste, but simply men of all castes who live for the game (kaissa). Later in the books, we see it clearly portrayed as a caste, with a High Council and all the bells and whistles of a real caste. That to me is a contradiction. One. The *only* clear one i can find in the books. However, i am not without faith in JN ~L~ Each day as i do a bit more research the man surprises me with the way he weaves details into things. i am thinking that somewhere in the books is a small, perhaps seemingly insignificant scene that refers to how and when the caste was formed. And in case the faithful readers missed it, in there was my admission that i learn something new from the books every day. i do not know it all nor do i claim to ~L~ So just bcause the players thing is the only solid contradiction *i* have found, it does not mean there are not more. The floor is still open. Toss em out! Let's get to the bottom of these contradictions once and for all! PS...more comments on your FW-sex contradiction in a bit... need a bit to rest my fingers and take a breath ~L~ |
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Librarian
Quote | Reply | This message was updated on 8/31/2003 7:14:03 AM by Librarian |
The books are full of contradictions
replied on: 8/31/2003 6:43:49 AM The black wine "contradiction" - Blackwine is only grown in Thentis and they don't sell it so how come we see everybody and his brother drinking it? quote: Just reading random quotes about black wine on a web site, one could easily conclude "everyone and his brother" drank black wine. To me, though, this is an example of JN weaving in the small details and using them to tell us something about the people and situation he is presenting at the moment. More on that in a minute. We DO see black wine being served in the Tahari, Port Kar, Victoria, and more. So first let us deal with how it got there. Thentis does not trade the beans. How else might they find their way across Gor then? Smuggling quote: Men have been slain for attempting ot smuggle the beans out - so we see here it has been attempted. We also are not told that ALL men who have tried to smuggle the beans out have been slain ~s~ quote: Apparently smuggling is common enough that some sleen in Thentis are specially trained to smell the beans and stop them from being taken out of the area. Back to the beginning, we are introduced to black wine on Gor in book 5, in the house of Cernus. Cernus owns the largest slaver house in the city of Ar, having 4,000 to 6,000 slaves in it at any given time. Cernus also has some political ambition as we later discover. However, at that point we are introduced to black wine and told these facts about it - - This (being served black wine) is rare - Thentis does not trade the beans - Even in Thentis (where it is grown) it is commonly only drunk in high caste homes. We know right away there is something different, special, about the House of Cernus. His kitchens, at least on this one particular morning, have black wine available to his men. Black wine that is not traded outside Thentis and hard to come by. JN appears to me to carry that theme through the books, presenting us with scenes of black wine in the house of Samos. Just a small casual detail he slips in showing Bosk or Samos drinking it. But having already placed in our minds the understanding that this is a rare thing, it tells us something about the wealth or power of the people we are viewing in a scene. We travel to the Tahari and in meeting the Pasha we also see black wine served. This appears to me to again be the use of details that JN has previously established, to quickly tell us something about the persons and situation involved in a scene. In Victoria, in Rogue, we find it mentioned as well. Jason had purchased some. While i do not find Jason to be on the level of a Pasha or Samos or Cernus, JN does not simply casually place the black wine in the scene with Jason either. In this case, he makes certain to mention it was a delicacy that had been purchased several days before and had not yet been served. Something rare. quote: ...and that concludes my thoughts on The Black wine "contradiction' PS - it is black wine, folks. Not blackwine and certainly not blackwyne ~s~ Black wine on Gor |
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Kassa
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The books are full of contradictions
replied on: 9/2/2003 8:23:20 AM oooooooh Kaliana -s- I go away and you come up with some awesome examples.. -rubs hands- Ok black wine. Being as Thentis is a city close to my heart, having spent a few years there -s-, I happen to love the contradiction of the black wine that was seen everywhere but really, how did it get there? My feelings have always been this: the black wine fields that surround Thentis are not always within the stone walls or gates that surround Thentis. They would be sprawling fields that are worked and guarded, however, I have always thought that theives probably stole from the the fields at night. Perhaps some were caught? Perhaps some were not? But you need only a small plant to grow it on your own. You will never have huge fields such as Thentis does, but a few beans so precious to you for a special occassion? -g- I think perhaps. Black wine was not spread around to the proportions you see today. Everyone calmly sipping their black wine -g-. Even in Thentis we did not offer it in the main hall and if requested I had to beg the kitchen master of my master's home to see if he would allow it. My master was one of the few rich enough to have black wine in his house (being the leader of thentis -heh- perks!), though he did not often allow others to taste his secret treasure -grins-. I would agree with you that it is used as a detail to show certain houses' wealth and standing in the gorean community. Not everyone had it and even then it would draw your eye to the houses that -did- have it. Excellent research Kaliana -s-.. Thank you! Well wishes, Kassa |
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