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| tempus275 Quote | Reply | This message was updated on 10/29/2006 7:51:12 PM by tempus275 | St Michael vs St Lawrence posted on: 10/29/2006 7:46:36 PM We have been doing some checking on the supposed name change of Heanor's Parish church. The history is supposed that the Church was St Michael's until the 1600's and then changed to St Lawrence - this even supported even by the historical society website. Based on some of the research that we have done so far I think this could be an error. The information we've found so far that refer to it being St Michael's can be accounted for under the research we have done. Does anybody know which records refer to the church as St Michaels? I want to check that there are not any that I have missed that may mess up the theory. Most of the referances to saying that it was St Michael's like Cox's book are annoying vague by just refering to "some sixteenth century documents" |
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RMMee
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 10/30/2006 2:41:15 PM Tempus I was always sceptical about the name change too, but until I am convinced otherwise I will stick with the church once being St. Michael's. The two main references I have to the name St. Michael are: - "Notes on the Churches of Derbyshire" by J. Charles Cox (1879), in which the author states that he has seen the name St Lawrence in a recent directory, but believes it to be a mistake. Cox makes reference to to Pegge's MSS and Bacon's "Liber Regis" to support the name St. Michaels, though I have never seen either of these items. - More importantly, the 1887 1" Ordnance Survey Map. What is the earliest reference that you have to the name St. Lawrence? If you can come up with a definitive answer, I would be very grateful (and will almost certainly run an article in our newsletter on the topic!). |
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tempus275
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 10/30/2006 7:23:01 PM I suspect that the OS mapmakers got the name from a document that they had read rather than factual experiance as all indications seem that even if it was St Michaels origionally by the time the map was made it would have been St Lawrence. Having suddenly thought about it I'll have to ask at the library.. I think they have an early Glebe map... might be worth seeing if it was contempory with the OS map and calls it St Lawrence. Was going to bid on an early Liber Regis the other day, but the seller said that the Parish of Heanor was not in it. No idea what Pegges Manuscripts are |
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Jennypeg
Researcher Quote | Reply | This message was updated on 11/3/2006 3:02:08 PM by Jennypeg |
St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 11/3/2006 2:30:08 PM The Wakes Festival 1890 Ripley & Heanor News The wakes commenced at Heanor on Sunday, when the bells of the church rang at an early hour and a flag floated from the tower. Several services were held during the day, of which the rector (the Rev. C. E. L. Corfield, M.A.) officiated. The open-air services, which are a feature of the festival, were badly attended owing to the heavy rain, but in the evening there was a large congregation at the parish church. The Rector in his sermon referred to the origin of the feast, which he said had probably been kept for nearly a thousand years, there being a church at Heanor at the time of the Doomsday Survey 800 years ago. The feast was kept to celebrate the opening of the first Christian church in Heanor. Mr Corfield also referred to the history of St Lawrence, to whom the church is dedicated. St Lawrence, who lived about 260A.D., was martyred during the persecution of Christians by the Emperor Valerian. Soldiers broke into the church and demanded from St Lawrence the treasures. St Lawrence pointed to the sick and poor who had taken shelter in the sacred edifice, and said, “These are the treasures of the church, the poor whom Christ loves.” Enraged by this reply the soldiers seized and burned him to death on iron bars over a slow fire. |
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tempus275
Quote | Reply | This message was updated on 11/11/2006 1:32:46 PM by tempus275 |
St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 11/11/2006 1:12:33 PM Sorry about the delay in response, had a holiday and put the archives to one side for the duration. Thanks Jennypeg - we have a number of the parish magazines that say the same thing, the vicars at the time were quite adamant that the church at the time was St Lawrence and always had been. RMMee, in answer to you question the earliest that I am aware of that directly calls it St Lawrence's is from the Victorian rebuild, however all the very early documents are under the protection of the County archive service and I am having some difficulties in getting them to send me copies as Matlock is quite difficult to get to with work. Hopefully they will be able to copy the churchwarden account books soon as they should shed some light on the matter. As far as the OS map is concerned I think they were working from documents for the name of the church, ditto with Cox's book. If I am correct it is a problem with the name "Heanor" causing the problem, however I am waiting for some more information from Litchfield and Derby as well as Matlock before I can be 100% certain. One of the main problems is that the early records will be unliky to name the church as it would have been the only one, it is far more common for them to say, the church at Heanor, the church at Ilkeston. Even if the Churchwarden account books don't name the church they may refer to the wakes festival.. if they were celebrating in August then we know they were keeping it at St Lawrence’s day, if its at another time of year then they are celebrating St Michael. I'll update once I've got some responses (and hopefully photocopies) from the archives. |
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tempus275
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 11/11/2006 7:58:32 PM Just found an interesting note in one of the parish magazines (Nov 1890) that demonstrates how people would oftern not refer to the Church by name - I thought it might be of interest to some people interested in the Hide and Roper families : "To all christian people to whom these presents shall come. Mary Hide Widdow and John Hide, her sonne, both of Heanor, in the countye of Darbie, send greetings in our Lord God everlasting. Know yee that we the sd Mary and John for divers, good causes and considerations, theryunto moovirig have given and granted, and by this present deed confirmed unto Samuel Roper, of Lincolns Inn, London, Esq. all our right, interest, and title wch wee have or had in one seat in the church of Heanor, in wch seat Henry Hide, husband of the sd Marye, and father of the said John, was wonte to sitt and standeth betwixt the Chancel and the Vicars Pue. To hand and hould the sd seat to the sd Samuell Roper and his heirs for ever, without any lett hindrance or molestation of the sd Mary and John, or any other clavming from, by, or under them. In witness whereof the said Mary Hide and John Hide have sett theyr hands and seales to these presents dated the feast day of St. Luke in the second yeer of the ragne of our soveragne, Lord Charles by the grace of God, king of England, Scotland, France, and Ireland, Defender of the fayth yr ano : dm: 1626. (Signed), Mary Hide, John Hide. Sealed and delivered, and possession and season given according to the intent of this intent of this deed in the presence of us, Edward Bludworth, The mark x Thomas Lord.” If anyone wants to view the origional I have cross referanced it with the list at Matlock - you would need to ask for item D1632 A/PI 31/1 |
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philfred
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 11/22/2006 3:12:39 PM This is from the entry for Heanor in Kellys 1932 directory. quote The church of St Micheal, now called St Lawrence, and given to Dale Abbey by Henry, Lord Grey of Codnor,in 1473 unquote. This is followed by a description of the church and items of note regarding the church. Quote a lofty embattled tower dating from 1279 unquote and quote the church was rebuilt, with the exception of the tower, in 1868 uquote. Could the name change have happened in 1473 on the aquisition of the church by Dale Abbey ? The above was found more by luck than judgement but it should be of use. regards Phil |
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tempus275
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 11/26/2006 8:06:14 PM I think I've found the quotation that Cox was refering to : In White's 1857 directory "There was a church here in the Conqueror’s time, and from the history of the foundation of Dale Abbey, it seems there was a chapel as well as a church here in the reign of Henry II., and that they belonged to the parish of St. Mary, in the town of Derby. In the 13th year of Edward IV., it was appropriated to the abbey at Dale, from which it was separated in 1473, and a mansion and a croft given to the vicar of the value of 10s., but there is no tithe paid. The Church, dedicated to St. Lawrence, is an ancient stone edifice, with nave, chancel, south aisle, and tower with 5 bells, and a clock. The living is a vicarage, valued in the King’s book at £9 10s., now £149, and has been augmented with £200 benefaction, £400 Queen Anne’s bounty, and £1,800 parliamentay grant. The Crown patron, and the Rev. Richard Whinfield, M.A., incumbent. In the church are several monuments of the Mundy family, and one to Samuel Watson, the celebrated sculptor, who was born at Heanor, where he died on the 26th March, 1715, aged 55 years, and was buried in the chancel of the church. On a very handsome mural monument in statuary marble, with cherubs and the family arms, is inscribed the following lines— “WATSON is gone, whose skilful art display’d To the very life whatever Nature made; View but his wondrous works in Chatsworth hall, Which are so gazed at, and admir’d by all, You’ll say ‘tiz pity he should hidden lie, And nothing said to revive his memory.— My mournful friends, forbear your tears, For I shall rise when Christ appears.” Also, a very handsome memorial window of stained glass, has been put up in the north aisle, to Mr. James Woolley, of Loscoe, who died in 1855. The subjects are—the Baptism of our Saviour, and the Last Supper. The Vicarage is a neat house near the church." Quoted from Neil Wilson's website dedicated to the said publication available from http://www.n.f.wilson.btinternet.co.uk/ |
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tempus275
Quote | Reply | This message was updated on 11/26/2006 9:34:09 PM by tempus275 |
St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 11/26/2006 9:28:44 PM Ok, this ones is a bit complicated so I recomend that anyone wanting the full acedemic arguement go to the libray and ask for Derbyshire Archaeological Journal volume 29 (1907) available from the archive, the article is Burton, R.J., Henovere and the Church of Heanor; notes on the chartulary of Burton Abbey and the chronicle of Dale Abbey. - Unless you want me to post the full article RMee? The arguement basicaly boils down to that at the time of Burton Abbey and Dale abbey there were two Heanors within Derbyshire. One is current Heanor we all know and love and the other was within the area (or at the time, Manor) of present day Mickleover. The 2nd Heanor now having been wiped away and only being remembered by the road (and field?) of "Rough Heanor" To keep the next part simple I will refer to our Heanor as "Heanor" and the Heanor of Mickleover as "Rough Heanor". The Church called either St. Marys or dedicated to "the blessed virgin Mary" was in Derby itself and had the "church" of Rough Heanor as a chapel of ease to it. J R Burton quite succinctly argues this point to great sucess using a number of early sources. Both the Church of St Mary and the Rough Heanor church were then given to the abbey of Burton by William the conqueror and seem to disapear from records somewhere during around the thirteenth century. This is as far as J R Burton went with his arguement as his main interest was in acedemicly proving that the Church under St Mary's and Burton was in Rough Heanor and not in Heanor. However, it is conceivable that if Burton is right, and Cox (and earlier, White) worked on a mistaken assumption that the documents refered to (Rough) Heanor as being under St Mary's were not actually refering to our Heanor Church, then Cox may also have used the name he found in one of those documents refering to St Michaels in Heanor mistakingly. I.e. that the now long lost Church in Rough Heanor may have been the one that was actually dedicated to St Michael. Sadly until I either get into Matlock or they finally send me the forms to request photocopies I can't check some of the churches early records. In theory the Churchwarden account books may verify Rev. Cofield's claim that the church has always celebrated the Wakes festival. Even if they do not refer to the Churches dedication by name they should show some indication of festivals either in August (St Lawrences day) or September (St Michaels day) to show which saint they were refering to. Will give more info as I find it. |
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tempus275
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 12/2/2006 10:46:42 PM Phew.... well today has been interesting, still not found proof one way or the other but came across some interesting records. One record, the "Magna Britannia" (1817) gives the following information about the number of people / houses in the Heanor area : Heanor in 1801 had 125 houses Heanor in 1811 had 341 houses Heanor in 1801 had 166 families Heanor in 1811 had 345 families Heanor in 1801 had 1061 inhabitents Heanor in 1811 had 1912 inhabitents Codnor in 1801 had 159 houses Codnor in 1811 had 207 houses Codnor in 1801 had 172 families Codnor in 1811 had 225 families Codnor in 1801 had 828 inhabitents Codnor in 1811 had 1103 inhabitents Codnor estate and park in 1801 had 59 houses Codnor estate and park in 1811 had 100 houses Codnor estate and park in 1801 65 families Codnor estate and park in 1811 had 108 families Codnor estate and park in 1801 had 309 inhabitents Codnor estate and park in 1811 had 708 inhabitents Shipley in 1801 had 83 houses Shipley in 1811 had 91 houses Shipley in 1801 had 85 families Shipley in 1811 had 93 families Shipley in 1801 had 433 inhabitents Shipley in 1811 had 563 inhabitents |
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philfred
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 12/7/2006 4:04:00 PM Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons. A Topographical Dictionary of Enland by Samuel Lewis published in 1831 contains an entry for Heanor. The entry contain the line "The church is dedicated to St. Micheal." regards Phil |
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tempus275
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 12/7/2006 11:07:06 PM No problems with the cats phil, I will just refer you back to the earlier issue of the "two Heanors", the main problem is that there are a few items that refer to the church as St Micheals, but all ones that seem to use the same manuscripts as a source.. and the sources seem to be the very early ones which have the confusion of which Heanor is which. For the church to have still been St Micheals 1830-1860 (between the dates of the article you quote and the OS map) would not tie in with Corfields account (quoted by Jennypeg & in the Parish magazines). The Corfields came to Heanor in the late 1860's and so all of the Corfield children would have known from their early Childhood (and from Sarah Corfield (Rev F. Corfields wife) who lived until after the turn of the century) if the church changed the name. They would have also had a number of people that either from their own lives or stories from their parents would have disputed Corfields claim that the festival was over a 1000 years old. The present issue is to try to find something "local", old, that speaks from personal experiance about the name of the church... which in theory will be churchwardens account books... which I can't get access to because the Matlock archive still haven't sent me the form for photocopies.. grrr As a sudden thought though, JENNYPEG, in your wonderful knowledge of local papers and articles that have appeared, would you be able to check your information about the earliest local papers to see if there is any referance in August (around the 11th) to any festivals at Heanor Parish? That might at least give us a date that we know it must have been St Lawrence's. Hopefully come the new year I'll either be able to take a holiday day at work and have a trip to the archive to check the church documents. |
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Jennypeg
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 12/8/2006 1:44:09 PM I will keep looking July 1954 Ilkeston Pioneer THE CHURCH Of Heanor presents many interesting architectural features. Its tower is an unusually beautiful one for a village church, but the interior gives sad proof of “Churchwarden’s havoc”. In 1473 it was conveyed by the Bishop of Lichfield and Coventry to the Abbey of Dale. The great tithes therefore became the property of that monastery, and continued to be so till the Dissolution. The chancel contains several fine monuments to the Mundy family. 1. Edward Mundy, Esq., and Hester, his wife, daughter of Richard Miller, Esq., and niece of Sir Humphrey Miller, Bart, He died 1767. 2. Of Edward Miller Mundy, Esq., and Frances, his first wife, daughter of Sir Godfrey Meynell. 3. Of Georgiana Dowager Baroness Middleton, his second wife by whom he had one daughter, the late Duchess of Newcastle. Another monument commemorates Patience the wife of Thomas Burton, Esq., 1679; and another Samuel Watson, a native of Heanor the carver of the principal stone work at Chatsworth. Watson was a man of original genius and his epitaph justly claims foe him the merit of some of the best of the Chatsworth sculptures: Watson is gone whose skilful art displayed To th’ very life whatever nature made View but his wondrous works in Chatsworth Hall Which are so gazed at and admir’d by all. Lord Orford erroneously calls him the pupil of Grinling Gibbons the fact is Gibbons was a pupil of Watson’s. Mr Watson died in 1715. His grandson was the late ingenious White Watson, of Bakewell, who inherited much of his grandsire’s skill, and was one of the first English geologists. Monuments of the ancient family of Roper, of Lowe, of Owlgreaves, of the Winters of Langley, and Clarkes of Codnor have disappeared. Also What is the derivation of the name Heanor? It was anciently written Henoure. It is often very erroneously pronounced Haynor just as Derby is, by the vulgar, but by educated persons pronounced Durby instead of Darby. We were once corrected for the last pronunciation. We did not defend it by referring as we might have done, to the Saxon etymon we simply asked how Clerk, Sergeant, Berkshire are pronounced? And the objectionist was silenced. Heanor then is Heanour or Heanor it is not Haynor or Hanor and it never was. Little is known of the early history of Heanor, The first fact worth recording is that in the reign of Henry the second, it was a chapelry to the church of St Mary at Derby. The parish however was in very early times of great extent and importance, for it comprised then, as does still Codnor, Codnor Castle and Park, Loscoe, Langley, Shipley, and Milnhay. Jenny |
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tempus275
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 12/8/2006 7:06:31 PM Lol... see even the Ilkeston pioneer thinks we are the one that was under St Mary's.. its the same error over and over.. sigh.. Dying to know what churchwardens havoc is... |
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philfred
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 12/11/2006 7:32:43 PM I have had a few days off work so I have ploughed through the Derbyshire Directories. These are on the historical directories site. Kellys Post Office Directory for 1855 says "The church of St Mary" Harrods 1870 and Wrights 1874 use St Lawrence for the church name. Kellys directories for 1891, 1895 and 1899 refer to "The church of St Micheal" Kellys direcory for 1912 refers to "The church of St Michael now called St Lawrence" A possibility of a Lawrence connection to with someone involved in financing of the rebuild. Just a thought but my research capability is over the net so I am stumped. regards Phil |
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tempus275
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St Michael vs St Lawrence
replied on: 12/11/2006 10:58:07 PM The Church is provibly known to have been St Lawrence prior to the victorian rebuild so any information calling it St Michaels after that point must be inaccurate by default. As the Corfields lived in Heanor and refer to St Lawrence as having an ancient festival every year on St Lawrence week it is fairly likly that any possible name change must have been in excess of 50 years previous (so pre 1820's) in order to be outside any direct "living" memory of the name change by local people. A change of a dedication of a patron saint is quite rare and would only happen for a very specific reasons, for example a miracle attributed to a certain saint or the transferance of relics from another site to the church. Heanor until the last century was quite literally a poor farmer's church (or more accuratly a poor stockinger, farmer and the occasional knight, church) so a link with St Lawrence is unlikly. The next possiblity for a name change would be the reformation.. which is more of a posibility. St Micheal is not actually a saint, he's an angel... in an attempt to show the seperation from the Catholic church it is conciveable that they renamed the church at that stage. However this is fairly unlikly as St Lawrence is almost as popular a saint in the Catholic church as St Micheal. The church being name after a person is unlikly, the church is virtually always known by its location or saint. For example if you asked most people in Heanor "Where is the Prior memorial church" I don't think any of them would know, wereas if you asked "where is Marlpool all saints" most would be able to point you in the right direction but would have no idea who Rev. Prior was. |
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