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| Regis Quote | Reply | | Changes Discussion posted on: 6/1/2003 6:56:19 PM I really love what Ross has done with the buildings  . I've been doing calcs for protection and I've found that Factories are nearly equal to alchemies. So equal in fact (for races without a plat bonus) that if you convert the lumber saved from factories to plat the Factories are better by only 5k. Of course, you won't always be able to save the wood from rot, so they are essentially equal for a 500 acre OOP. At 600+ OOP (5th and 6th wave explorers) factories actually pull ahead a bit.I haven't done any long-range calcs to see which is better as the round goes on, but I think that alchemies are going to be better after protection until some point mid-round when construction costs are huge. I also tested Alchemies vs Treasuries and found that at 1000 acres (the earliest I was considering actually having treasuries) they came out *ahead* of alchemies for someone with 100% employment. Of course an attacker, or someone who didn't watch their employment closely would do better with alchemies...unless they were stolen from. Because Smithies are less effective now I don't think I will build any after the 20% OOP and gradually make them something else. Probably Treasuries until Factories or Guard Towers become more effective. So what do you guys think of the new building changes? -Regis |
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LiveWire
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Changes Discussion
replied on: 6/1/2003 7:15:58 PM i think a few races got some nice indirect buffs. havnt really looked at factories. wouldnt they still only be best for those races that target races with dissimilar builds? dwarf vs DE comes to mind. |
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Tim_Myth
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Changes Discussion
replied on: 6/2/2003 10:35:01 PM I'm not seeing the benefit of factories, especially with barracks in hills now. A lot of the other buildings did get some very nice improvements, Spy Guilds...err...forest havens that is...are almost worthwhile now. Even wizard guilds look tempting now. |
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Regis
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replied on: 6/2/2003 11:49:02 PM Forest Havens are great for Wood Elves and Sylvan, but I don't really see the attraction for other races. You can't really steal from anyone now. I'd rather have alchemies to go along with my masonries *if* masonries are going to be as good as I think they are. The higher the plat bonus the better those alchemies are. I'm wondering about Treasuries instead of alchemies though, if I have extra room. What are your thoughts on Guard Towers? How efficient are they? -Regis |
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J-Roc[LoC]
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replied on: 6/3/2003 11:03:19 AM you can still steal from people without treasuries. how do we already know people will have them, since you just asked if they were even worth it over alchs? i havent done any calcs, but im concerned we're too hasty declaring that the apocalypse of thieving has descended upon us |
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Tim_Myth
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replied on: 6/3/2003 11:48:24 AM From an efficiency stand point, treasuries aren't worth it compared to alchemies. 1000 acres 200 alchs 100 treas 30000 Plat per hour from other buildings (30000 + 200 * 80.5) * (1 + .1 [treas] + .1 [midas] + .07 [science]) = 58547 plat/hr 1000 acres 100 alchs 200 treas 30000 Plat per hour from other buildings (30000 + 100 * 80.5) * (1 + .2 +.1 +.07) = 52129 plat/hr We can safely assume the 30k per hour from other buildings for both scenarios because our number of jobs does not change. Either way we are still only using 30% of our land for treasuries or alchemies. They suck even worse for Firewalkers: (30000 + 100 * 100.5) * (1 + 0.2 +0.1 +0.07) = 54869 vs. (30000 + 200 * 100.5) * (1 + 0.1 +0.1 +0.07) = 63627 Throw in a racial bonus and they still suck too. The only way I could see them making sense is if I were an exploring kobold who was only able to log on twice a day at the most, and even then I don't think I would run more than about 10 or 15%. |
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Tim_Myth
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replied on: 6/3/2003 12:32:16 PM The math for guard towers is a lot harder and a lot longer to show, so I'll just sum it up. GTs only seem to be worthwhile if your draft rate is exceptionally high. So, races like dwarves, SPUDs, and gobos will benefit from them late game while races like Trolls, Icekin, Gnome, and WE are better off using almost anything else. |
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Regis
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replied on: 6/3/2003 2:52:31 PM I'm talking about theiving from a top 50 standpoint. I've never finished a round, but I've always made the top 50 (even my first round as Kobold). Since you can only steal from people above you now, I don't see stealing as an important factor (for me)any more. All the people I could steal from are good players and pretty active. Maybe if I fall out later in the round I'll make more spies to help close the gap, but by that time forest havens wouldn't be very efficient anyway. Thus, I doubt I'll ever use them except as Wood Elves or Sylvans. Treasuries just make the situation worse, though I doubt any top players will use them. -Regis |
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Tim_Myth
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replied on: 6/3/2003 3:10:21 PM I agree Regis (btw, where's Kathy?)  I was a top troll all round, and always just out of the top 100 over all. Except for bedtime and the weekend I went out of town, the most people usually got from me was >100 plat. Being broke is the best way to stop theiving. Even as a WE with a higher spy ratio I never really found many top 100 players to steal from. I could always use Viruz and my Premium search to find an explorer who hadn't logged in for an hour or two, so I could get maybe 8-10k pretty frequently, but when you lose 50k worth of spies on a failure, why bother risking it? |
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Regis
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replied on: 6/3/2003 3:18:50 PM *grumbles something about a really old joke* I've used this name for about 4 years now with my games and everybody asks that question :-p Maybe I should switch to Plato or something so people start asking me where Socrates is.Anyway, I'm thinking about dumping DMs from my protection strat. What are your thoughts on that? I'll replace them with alchemies for a much faster start and hopefully stay ahead of most people until I do put in some DMs and get my keep % up. As expensive as improvments are now I'm also considering running very low DMs and ignoring everything but Keep. Have you updated your efficiency calcs? I'd really like to have a look at them now. -Regis |
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Tim_Myth
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replied on: 6/3/2003 3:46:03 PM I have updated my efficiency sheets. I have been tweeking them all day, and the newest updates will be uploaded tonight. Most of the fixes were pretty minor, but I did devise a way of guestimating what your castle improvements will be with a given percentage of DMs. As far as dumping DMs...I don't know. One of the reasons I'm not a top 50 player is because I suck at transitioning from OOP to regular play...I'm always playing catch-up. It sounds like it could work though. Looking at an efficiency sheet, if you just invest in keep and science, it is about 8% more efficient to run 5% diamond mines and 25% alchs than it is to run 30% DMs and no alchs. |
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Regis
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replied on: 6/3/2003 3:52:15 PM That works for me. I'm playing an exploring human this round and the alchemies would give me the boost I need to ignore specs and still keep up with the top guys (at least I hope so), and since I'm space efficient from the start I should need less into improvments for the same stats. Gotta love that cheap 6 point defender with no land requirements Humans are just so flexible.-Regis PS are the updated sheets uploaded on your website? |
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J-Roc[LoC]
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replied on: 6/3/2003 4:01:10 PM ive read a bunch of other top players saying no DMs in protection for last round either, to go alchs/smithies and then build DMs with you rconquered land. made sense i thought. hwo about this: somebody somewhere mentioned temples in protection. how would it work say building a certain number of temples in that first build on hour 1 (instead of all alchs) to help your pop grow faster -> more plat/draftees. then when you come out theyll help a little with bonus reduction and you can raze later or just let em sit. im not sure how hte pop growth formulas work for how many peas you get. thoughts? |
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LiveWire
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replied on: 6/3/2003 4:05:02 PM im playing gnome next round. ive posted this in teh gnome discussion but got little feedback. i suppose i will still need my starting alchs, high OMs, high homes? ill phase out the alchs for masonries and DMs as i grow. and the target oop DP/OP to shoot for as an attacker is 3k/7k? |
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Regis
Quote | Reply | This message was updated on 6/3/2003 7:31:38 PM by Regis |
Changes Discussion
replied on: 6/3/2003 4:06:42 PM Yes, you need the alchs, high Ore Mines (for rockapault defense and improvments), and some homes, but not too many. I'd say 50 max OOP. I don't think you need to bother with masonries this round. I know I won't even think about using them. I'm not sure what a Gnome should use, though Gryphon Nests are an interesting building to fill in the extra bit of the 50% mountains that Homes and Ore Mines don't fill. Gnomes really are hurt by still not being able to build Barracks even though they are on Hills now. No Barracks + -5% pop penalty = a really bad race (IMO). Gnomes are space efficient, but not *that* efficient. Trolls and WE are the only races that are efficient enough to overcome those kinds of disadvantages and the sad thing is that Trolls get Barracks. -Regis |
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Regis
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replied on: 6/3/2003 4:25:49 PM Ok, well, there is a problem with Temples in protection as I see it, especially if you are sacraficing Alchemies. First, alchemies start producing plat right away. They are absolutely awesome when your employment is low (like it always is in protection). Temples take time to work, so you'll be losing out at the beginning of protection even with your increased growth rate. Also, at the end of protection your plat production will be lower with temples compared to Alchemies because once employment is at 100% temples do no good, whereas Alchs are still pumping out 44 plat per hour more (with Midas). Attacking with Temples OOP isn't so great either for two reasons. First, the major problem (at least for me) is plat, not draftees. With temples you will have even less plat to train troops with and thus less troops to send, which further negates the temples bonus. Second, attacking with Specs OOP is usually better and they are cheap and not really painful to lose or replace. -Regis |
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